wet wings

[elkosonerai]

I am building a sonerai IIL it is built single seat and will be running an o-200 and either going custom cam and high compression or a turbo I am looking for at least 135 hp. I am converting the wings to wet wings for long cross countrys and keep the header tank for aerobatics.
Has anyone else converted them to wet wings

 

[jwalin]

Boris Makowich is building wing tanks....you can see his progress in the pictures section.....but......

You won't like to hear this.....

You are not building a Sonerai. The O-200 is too heavy for the Sonerai design. 135 HP is way too much for the Sonerai design....over twice the maximum allowed HP. Even 100 HP will exceed what the airframe is capable of handling.

You are designing a new plane. I for one, am very interested in your progress! I love the lines of the Sonerai....I am building a S2 midwing with VW Type 4 power set up for single seat only. I will add fuel capacity in the passenger area. I like the folding wings. Hard to do with wing tanks.

I wanted to build a plane based on a Corvair powerplant. About the same power and weight as an O-200. It would be nice to have wing tanks, as they give more room in the fuselage, and actually spread the weight of the fuel along the wing spar better, and as fuel is consumed it shouldn't affect balance. And I tried to reconfigure the Sonerai with that idea. But, it just won't go there, and still be a Sonerai. But, by all means, if you have the ambition and dream, then go for it. Just accept that you will be flying an unproven design and trusting your life to it.

My advice, for what it is worth, is that you may be happier with a KR-2S, or even a Wittman Tailwind. Either of these designs are better in every respect for a 100-135HP powerplant. Maybe, if within your budget, a Mustang II or a RV-4 or RV-8.

I know it doesn't look like much to most people, but the Tailwind is one hell of a great plane for everything it sounds like you want to do with a plane. It will cover all the ground a Sonerai will in less time and in more comfort, and it handles like a raceplane!

Good luck whatever you decide. And if you want some good reading about risk management and Experimental aircraft design and engines.....get a copy of William Wynne's corvair engine manual. It is more than just about building a Corvair engine.

Jeff

 

[Schmleff]

I am building a sonerai IIL it is built single seat and will be running an o-200 and either going custom cam and high compression or a turbo I am looking for at least 135 hp. I am converting the wings to wet wings for long cross countrys and keep the header tank for aerobatics.
Has anyone else converted them to wet wings

Robin Austin has wing tanks in his and a 100hp rotax on the front. Its a mighty fast plane too.

A bare o-200 is going to weigh over 200 pounds. a turbo o-200 is going to weigh 240? Well over what you are going to be able to balance without a lot of lead in the tail.

HP is not always the answer to performance. How fast do you want to go? Why do you want to run 135hp?

 

[elkosonerai]

I realize that it will end up being a different airplane when I am done, as far as weight and ballance I have calculated that and shortened the nose to compensate for it since I already eliminated the front seat and shortened the canopy. The airframe and wings are more than strong enought to handle it with the reinforfement in the firewall area. and increased tail area. I also have a cherokee235 for a family plane but want a less expensive faster plane for solo cross countrys. I understand I will be test flying an un proven desiegn ( I have done that before) I am leaning more towards non turbo and higher compression to increase engine efficiency and power. My airframe is completed and wings were built acording to plans but am now going to remove the top skin and converting to wet wings they will be full of fuel from the spar forward from base to tips and will either have trapdoor baffles in the ribs or have fuelsafe foam in them. if all goes well it will show up at airshows when it is done and some might actually recognize it as based on a sonerai. And Yes the tailwind is a great airplane I have always been impressed by them.

 

[jwalin]

Do you have ay pics of your progress so far? I would like to see the changes you made so I can learn more about shortening the front.......I had thought about this when I wanted a corvair up front. I also thought about just moving the wing forward a bit to change the balance.....but I knew the corvair most likely wouldn't fit under the cowling, and I liked the original lines too much.

Like I said before....I am very interesed in your progress!!

Jeff

 

[elkosonerai]

I shortened the fuselage 18 inches which made up for 12 inches of motormount and set engine back 6" from original for balance. I will be building a new cowling but will try to stay simillar to original look. mine has a short one place style canopy and P51 shaped tail feathers which are a bit larger than original with a larger rudder that will help with the increased horspower. my O-200 is a converted Gpu engine with a prop extension so it will only be a couple inches shorter than standard. the wet wings will only be used for cross countrys and should allow virtually coast to coast duration.only the header tank will be used if I plan on doing aerobatics. I will post pics when I get the chance. I will take pics along the way for the wet wing conversion in case anyone else wants to try the same.

 

[dred]

I am sorry, but can you explain me, what does WET WINGS concept mean? Thanks. Konstantin.

 

[Schmleff]

Means that the fuel with be in the wings. The tank will actually be the skins an ribs.

 

[Schmleff]

I realize that it will end up being a different airplane when I am done, as far as weight and ballance I have calculated that and shortened the nose to compensate for it since I already eliminated the front seat and shortened the canopy. The airframe and wings are more than strong enought to handle it with the reinforfement in the firewall area. and increased tail area. I also have a cherokee235 for a family plane but want a less expensive faster plane for solo cross countrys. I understand I will be test flying an un proven desiegn ( I have done that before) I am leaning more towards non turbo and higher compression to increase engine efficiency and power. My airframe is completed and wings were built acording to plans but am now going to remove the top skin and converting to wet wings they will be full of fuel from the spar forward from base to tips and will either have trapdoor baffles in the ribs or have fuelsafe foam in them. if all goes well it will show up at airshows when it is done and some might actually recognize it as based on a sonerai. And Yes the tailwind is a great airplane I have always been impressed by them.

how are you going to keep the fuel from drifting from side to side in a bank? What about fuel going to the tips in a spin making it impossible to recover? Have you considered these problems? The full length of the wing as a tank is a lot of fuel.

 

[Schmleff]

BTW,

Your tanks would be about 29.6 gallons each.

 

[elkosonerai]

BTW,

Your tanks would be about 29.6 gallons each.

Thats about what I calculated. It will have trap door baffles in each rib to prevent fuel from traveling outwards. it will also have a header tank. of course there will be no aerobatics with fuel in the wings and there will never be the weight of a passenger since it is single seat. I am looking at true crosscountry range. my current cherokee 235 has 7 hours of fuel plus reserve on economy cruise and I have never felt the need to land short of that due to fatigue and have often flown two tank days wishing for more duration, so this plane will solve that problem when flying solo. At 6 gph it should be able to fly from elko almost anywhere in the lower 48 nonstop and from washington to soldotna AK ( where my familly is) nonstop on a reasonable amount of fuel. Its not the plane everyone would want to fly that far in but compared to some of the bush planes I flew in Alaska it is almost comfortable. It will have a compartment in the turtledeck for survival gear that I will consider part of my empty weight.

 

[skyFlyer]

I find this completely fascinating!! I am also interested in using this as a cross country to go on a 900nm trip a couple times a year from Michigan to Gulf side of Texas (family). I have considered fabricating an aux tank that fits in the front seat for my CC's. I figured I might be able to get an additional 12 gallons which would greatly expand my range from the main tanks capacity. I often wondered if wing tanks were an option for the Sonerai but after seeing inside my wing, I doubted that possible as theres just no feasible room......obviously my opinion, at least from a normal aplication tank installatuion stand point. I would love to hear more about your fabrication ideas on this!

John
59RR
Sonerai IIL

 

[jwalin]

I had thought about using PVC pipe in the holes in the ribs the entire length of the wing. Some of the KR guys use PVC pipe tanks in their wings.....but I abandoned the idea because I was worried about the wings getting heavy at the tips when turning......and it would only give you about 12 gallons....

Jeff

 

[bobleedee]

I find this completely fascinating!! I am also interested in using this as a cross country to go on a 900nm trip a couple times a year from Michigan to Gulf side of Texas (family). I have considered fabricating an aux tank that fits in the front seat for my CC's. I figured I might be able to get an additional 12 gallons which would greatly expand my range from the main tanks capacity. I often wondered if wing tanks were an option for the Sonerai but after seeing inside my wing, I doubted that possible as theres just no feasible room......obviously my opinion, at least from a normal aplication tank installatuion stand point. I would love to hear more about your fabrication ideas on this!

John
59RR

I've seen a Varieze with an extra tank in the seat and it works well, i;m told. it does take up your baggage area however.
Sonerai IIL

 

[lqbanotxano]

You want 6 to 10 gallons for under $200.00 in parts. Buy the Sonerai News letter. There is an article in there that chronicles how I attached an aluminum spool tank behind the back seat...with out loosing any luggage area...and it's fail safe. My battery failed & I was safe. Mine has a 6 gallon capacity & with my 12.4 main tank it gives me 4hrs endurance at 125-130mph or 3hrs at 140-145mph with 45minutes reserve. Weight & ballance is good also. Can you sit in your plane any longer than 3-4 hours anyway?

Ivan in Sugar Land, Texas.

 

[FarmerTim]

Can you sit in your plane any longer than 3-4 hours anyway?

Ivan in Sugar Land, Texas.

Yup.
I did a 5.5 hour trip from Mi to OK just last month ..... of course that was my C182. Ive pushed it towards its 6.5 hour endurance quite a few times.
But ill be the first to tell ya about an hour in a Sonerai will do me.
Tim

 

[piperpilot1363]

I always thought a set of small 3 gallon tanks squeezed between the ribs in each wing root would be a good way to get 3.5 hours cruise with 45 minute reserve, and have a single pump to cross feed them to the header. It properly won't happen as I would really rather not screw around with the wings, especailly if plan on an occasional loop or roll. Besides, I plan this to be an affordable plane, and only have single seat cross country perfomance with a Aux. tank where the frount seat is, along with extra baggage. I'd take the tanks out when I wanted to take someone up, fly young eagles ect....

Andrew
N3351W
Hows Experimental N1363RA sound for our sonerai's tail number?
just thinking ahead

 

[phzabriskie]

I figure 3hours at a clip is plenty even cross country. I've got to stop and eat sometime, if I wanted to cross country eating just peanuts I would fly Southwest Airline. I like Fred's extra gas arrangement and it will work perfectly with the seat arrangement I have. Although I also have a space behind my seat for about 5 gals that might work better for W/B. Andrew does N1363RA has special meaning?
-Pete

 

[FarmerTim]

Hows Experimental N1363RA sound for our sonerai's tail number?
just thinking ahead

Long.... someone renumbered my c182 N222TK. I sound like an ***** trying to spit it out, even ATC screws it up.
Try smthn with Alfa Wisky? but hey you do what you want, its your airplane.
Tim

 

[Raceair]

I think the FAA issues 6 digit numbers or less...including the 'N'...