Three point versus Wheel landings

[pacerpilot]

I've noticed in most posts and videos of Sonerai's landing everyone is doing threepoint landings. Is this because of a prop clearance issue or another condition? I'm probably going to be purchasing in the next week or so and would like to make sure I know how to land correctly. I do both types in my Taylorcraft depending on wind conditions and actaully prefer wheel landings. Any info will be appreciated, thanks.

 

[Schmleff]

Whatever suits your style. Neither are difficult once you get the feel for each.

For reference, I almost always landed my C-120 on the wheels and almost always 3 pointed my Pacer. For the first 50 hours or so, I wheel landed my SI. For the last 70 or so I 3 point it.

I wonder if its more of a pilot preference.

 

[splischke]

I have 17.5" of ground clearance with a 54" diameter prop when the tail is up so ground clearance, or lack thereof, is no reason why I usually land 3-point. I just find it much easier to land my Sonerai in a full stall, 3-point attitude regardless of wind condition. I wheel land too but I find it challenging.

Eight landings today. Six 3-point and two somewhere in between :

-Scott

 

[pacerpilot]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm getting close to a buy and just want to be sure of as much as possible. Sounds like the three point is the way to go for now. It was a long time ago when I flew a Sonerai and I can't hardly remember it. I do know it was an awesome flying machine. Even my wife likes the idea of a Sonerai-since I told her they run VW engines. She knows that they're cheap to rebuild and since I do it myself (I'm a former desert rat from SoCal) it'll be cheap to keep.

 

[JuergenA]

one of the other differences is the touch down speed:
on wheel landing, you have about 70mph touch down speed and on three point landing it is about 50mph touch down speed. On hard surface landing strip, it is equal, but on rough grass strip, it makes a big difference (see topic "bent landing gear back to spec") . Also on a emergency landing in a field outside the airfield, it is important to have a slow touch down speed....
with best regards
Juergen

 

[brunopitts]

You're right Juergen, in an emergency: more speed you have , less chance to survived. It's an exponential curve...

 

[thomefran]

I am going to agree also. Paved runways are not as critical as a grass runway or off field landings. The drag the grass or weeds give to the landing gear and aircraft makes the landing speed much more crucial.

I do a little of both when I land on the runway. I have found that a wheel landing then back to three point makes for a very smooth transition to not flying anymore. But when you are not familiar with your aircraft OR in some circumstances remember that speed CAN be your friend as you land your plane.

 

[Gaston]

Bruno & Juergen
are right about excess of speed in an emergency,but most of the time ,in an emergency ,one tends to bleed off the speed, trying to keep flying ,which is not any better...
Stall may occur ,and you may lack some speed for a controlled flare

In my last total engine failure,I had to keep the speed around 100 MPH in order to go faster than cars I wanted to land in front of,I really needed this overspeed...
I also realised the hard way,that too low a speed in an emergency landing make it for a very hard landing.this on an paved road may be not that bad ,but could easily cause a nose over is an unknown field...

If you want to master crosswinds in your sonerai, you will have to master wheel landing. I would not dare to 3 point it in a 12Kts 90 degree wind,I don't say it is not possible ,I just say wheel landing it on only one wheel is so much easier and safe,then as the speed bleeds off, the other main touches down, and finally the tail wheel,in a full controlled motion...

this is how I always do it when playing in the wind...
and the sonerai is very docile for this...

one must know to land it at minimum controlled speed as well as at high speed, so the the proficiency is there when the need arises...

this is not only my opinion, I know it works well in real life

Gaston

 

[brunopitts]

Just after the round out,don't let the main wheels touch down but hold on and bleed off your speed and at that height you won't fall from the sky.
So much fun with you Gaston...

 

[pacerpilot]

It sounds like the Sonerai responds equally well to either type of landing. As usual, it's the pilot that limits performance. I'll keep practicing both in my Taylorcraft, I think the transition will be smooth.

Guy

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

FWIW, Wheel landings in Mouser are fine *unless* there is a substantial crosswind. There is a point at about 45 mph (just guessing, never looked) where rudder authority is insufficient to maintain directional control with the tail in the air.
The only thing you can do at that point is to get the tail down post haste if you don't have independent braking.
For that reason, I *always* land 3 point.

 

[Gaston]

Hi Chuck
would you 3 point it with a 15 Knots 90 degree wind ??

I do not feel this lack of rudder authority at some point with the tail in the air...
Maybe I use my brakes and do not realise it...

Unfortunately It will take many months before I can take notes of this...

anyway I have a lot of fun in strong winds with this great little bird

Gaston

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hi Chuck
would you 3 point it with a 15 Knots 90 degree wind ??

I do not feel this lack of rudder authority at some point with the tail in the air...
Maybe I use my brakes and do not realise it...

Unfortunately It will take many months before I can take notes of this...

anyway I have a lot of fun in strong winds with this great little bird

Gaston

Definitely. As a test, try pushing the tail up with elevator at slow speeds on takeoff. Without differential braking, I'll bet it will turn into the cross wind, (especially one from the right) or with no wind, the nose will go to the right without full left rudder. ;D
For that reason, I start the takeoff run with full aft stick for directional control, then *neutralize* the elevator. As speed builds, the tail will come up of its own accord, and by that time, aerodynamic rudder control is positive.
I would say that the Sonerai's x wind ability is second to none of all the airplanes I've flown. And, yes.. *lots* of fun with this great little bird. ;D

 

[DaveWilcox]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the tail hook landing, or tail wheel first. The wing chord angle to the ground with the plane on it, is about 9 degrees. According to Theory of Wing Sections, the 64A212 stalls at about 14 degrees. How is it possible to get a full stall three point landing with a Sonerai?

You can get a much slower landing if you use some of that AOA available between 9 and 14 by touching the tail wheel first. It's not very graceful, but it is slower, more stable and more forgiving.

I do not think a person going out for the first flight in a Sonerai should be shooting for a three point landing. Hold it off as long as you can, touch the tail first and the mains immediately follow with a bit of a smack, but you'll lose several degrees of AOA in the process and the plane will stick like glue. An inexperienced Sonerai pilot trying to three point it will be landing several times on every attempt.

 

[n3480h1]

Tailhook landing is what our local Sonerai II pilot uses. He told me that once the tailwheel is in contact with the runway, the plane is done flying. Dave's explanation of AOA makes sense - no lift=no fly. This also happens to be the way I was able to make good landings in the Cinquanta Wasp biplane. Just that little kiss with the tailwheel changed the AOA enough that the Wasp settled in nicely. Can't wait to do it in my own Sonerai.

Tom

 

[daddo2]

Is a tailwheel first landing a good way to land a Sonerai in a significant crosswind?

 

[DaveWilcox]

That can be argued. I hope we're talking about a Sonerai pilot with some experience, because a new Sonerai pilot should not be in a cross wind.

This tail hook "smacking" of the mains becomes a little more uncomfortable if one wheel hits well before the other. The same thing happens with the three point landing, it becomes a two point, one main and the tail wheel. In the tail hook landing, when that tail wheel hits the runway your tail gets pushed "up", your AOA decreases, and your elevator is no longer effective in controlling pitch: the wheels are coming down. If the "smack" is hard on one wheel, then your going to get a sharp moment in the roll axis and then hit the other wheel, a twisting jolt.

That's kind of what the wheel landing is all about. Keeping some pitch control in the landing maneuver. My preference would still be the tail hook, but I don't have any fancy reasons why.

 

[Gaston]

Chuck
On my 2L it's easy to lift the tail at low speed on take off with a passenger in the front, without using the brakes.
the high power provides plenty of rudder effectiveness both sides...
I often do this as I fly most of the times with a passenger.

15 kts steady winds is something a 3 point landing can take care of ,but when guts are present or winds are stronger ,I find a wheel landing much safer and easier...

a tail first landing in a crosswind is something I try hard not to do...
in my first hours of flying a sonerai, I had no time in a tail wheel...
I was told that once the tail is hooked on the ground,that was it,and that was safe.
Happily at this time I didn't fly with winds,but as the hours built up,I soon flew into the winds.

A few times,I inadvertently hooked the tail in a landing that was supposed to be a 3 points cross wind landing ...
Once, the plane maintained this high nose attitude for a while, almost out of my control until the right wing began to fall, so I applied left aileron and the left main touched hard,soon followed by the right almost at the same times as the left wheel was bouncing up,and the wind raised it briskly, while the plane veered to the right...
it all ended OK ,but I was upset...

for sure a wheel landing implies more speed and longer landing distance, but it also provides better visibility ahead,and a better control of the contact point, which I do prefer,even in cross wind situation.

For best results One should get proficient with the sonerai, long before playing into the wind...

Gaston

 

[pacerpilot]

I was taught that you should always try to touch the tail wheel first in a three point landing. That is, just a moment prior to the mains in a seemingly three point touch down. It prevents increasing the AOA and flaring/bouncing so long as you're actually at a speed that is below flying. It works very well with my Taylorcraft but then that's a little different plane. I still like wheel landings better though.

 

[phzabriskie]

OK ......I'm dying here. Stuck on the ground and can't get my little Blue Wing sticker under my Sonerai.net name. Somebody buy some of my old airplane kit catalogs I have on Ebay so I can buy some rivets and get on with building. :'(
Ebay Item : 280596692522
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280596692522&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT