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Information on engine weight reduction?

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n3480h1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
1,522
Location
Iowa
I'm interested to learning what has been done to safely reduce VW Type 1 engine weight for an upcoming project. I have a spare GPASC 1915 that will power the new project. I'm aware of the nickasil option, no starter, minimal electrics and the usual solutions. What I am more interested in is the other options which may not be so obvious. Even if its just grams. It can be things that have been successfully done and flown, or theoretical options - I'd like to see them all.

Tom
 
Hi Tom,

Replaced a welded steel intake manifold with a fiberglass one, saving probably a pound and a half or so. (I know I weighed them both but can't find the numbers right now.) Have flown behind it several times with no issues.

Ed
 
Ed, thanks for the reply. I consider your sucessful FG intake one of the better ideas I have learned of, and a pound and a half is huge. Well done! Mine will definitely be composite. Curious, did you incorporate metal ends, or are they built up FG?

Tom
 
I doubled the ends with fiberglass, not metal. And since the O.D. was already kinda big for the rubber couplers I added the extra glass inside.


Ed
 
you might also check out Chad's flywheel engine in the Gallery and watch for what he removed from the bell flange of the engine. What he removed must have weighed some...

Speaking of Chad, is he still around here?

cheers
Hans
 
Chad's engine work is a major inspiration to me and a great resource. And there are others who know a thing or two about the VW . . . come on Scott R - spill it.
;D

Tom
 
Ok Tom, here it goes.
If I were looking to save as much weight as possible on a type 1 VW using an X-casting, alternator and duel ignition by saving every gram I could, I would consider the following (besides what you have already thought of):
The obvious things first such as lightening holes where possible and the lightest internal parts such as lifters, cylinders and rods using 41xx or better 43xx for the steel parts. Lightness and speed have the same factor, and that is $$$. Also trimming the flange for the transmission bell housing down, not going into the thicker squared section
Get Leonard Milholland's Better Half VW Engine plans and video (betterhalfvw.com). Leonard has built one of the lightest ½ VW’s out there. He looked to save weight on all the internal parts. For example, he drills out the centers of shaft components. Study what he did and apply it to our 4 cylinder VW. This also might be an engine to consider if you were looking to leave 2 cycle altogether, Tom. If you do build a better half, let me know, I have a change I was going to do that has no bearing on a 4 cylinder.
Use the stock valve covers, they are about 50 grams lighter each compared to the aluminum ones I have.
If you are going to use a remote cooler, drill and tap the stock cooler in/outlets for NPT to AN nipples instead of an adapter.
Don’t use a distributor type secondary. You will not need the brass distributor gear, spacer and the distributor drive. This will also let the engine make more HP by reducing the fiction to drive all that stuff. This is over 900 grams with a 009 distributor. You will lose some of the gain with the new ignition module and the mount for the sensors. See my photo gallery for my mounting of my Hall Effect sensors. (I have cut more away since mounting the Hall sensor.) I have a module from a Honda Nighthawk that I plan to toy with at some point. This type of secondary offers an advance curve, unlike the GP type which is fixes. The modules discussed in the other current thread look really nice to me. A programmable curve would be much better than one set for an engine that redlines at 10500 rpm or so. They are also priced right; I picked mine up for about $90 used 10 yrs ago to replace one that turned out not to bad- stupid pick-up coil.
Here is the one thing that will save you money. Don’t use a battery. Replace it with a capacitor. Our permanent magnet alternators do not need a field coil, so they need no power to start to generate power (excepting mechanical power for the physics sticklers out there). The down side to this is you can’t run your electric stuff until the motor is fired up on the mag, but you have time for those things while your oil warms up. The correct size capacitor can be found in any Harley Davidson store or catalog. While you are there, you might want to look at regulators. There are two types and I do not know what type ours are. The first type puts a constant load on the engine and dumps the excess power to ground. The better type, read $$$, adjusts the load to suit the need. This allows more HP when you turn off the extra electrical stuff.
This should get you started, but it is by no means an exhaustive consideration of the possibilities. When I think of more, and I will, I’ll let you know.
Please forgive any grammar/spelling mistakes, I hate proofreading!
Scott R
 
Thank you Scott! This is absolutely excellent information. I learned several new things here, especially about the seconday ignition. The only problem I have is that every time I walk into a H-D store . . . I ride out. ::) Many of these things will be incorporated in the 1915 engine for the next project, one of Ed Fisher's 'Lil Bitts. Some of these will also be put into the 2287 that will go into my IILS.

What great resources (members) we have here on Sonerai.net.

Tom
 

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Tom...Cool looking biplane!! I have been thinking, and an obvious weight reduction is already on my '1600' that is going on my Veebee Supervee....There is a small, cup shaped casting that bolts to the back of the case, that bolts down the mag....I 'think' it is an old revmaster part...There is no X-casting on my engine....As used on the Renegade FV, the engine bell housing mount points are the motor mount holes. On the stock universal case, the bottom two mounts are metric studs sticking out of the case, the top two mounts are just holes in the bell.....Appropriate sized hard rubber bushings slip over the bottom studs, and top bolts, and bolt directly to the airframe. That omission alone saves a lot of weight, probably a 'few' pounds. A lot of the 'older' VW powered homebuilt designs use this thinking. The only advantage I see in the basic non-electric 'x' casting is a 'tad' less vibration transmitted....Ed
 
Ed, it is a very cool biplane, and the first design I could find nothing to improve upon. The lines are perfect.

This is a very good weight saving idea you have. If I understand it correctly, I'd use Scott's Hall Effect secondary which would eliminate the need for an alternator and the X casting could be dropped. Mount the engine bell housing at the 4 points where the X casting was mounted, using dampers on all four. I presume a welded engine mount would be required to provide some clearance for the exhaust, and maybe the intake tubes, but that would still be lighter than the X mount and alternator. I'm a big fan of engine and prop balancing, so I don't think vibration should be an issue, especially if the mount dampers are right.

Perhaps the most difficult part of this weight reduction issue will be to reduce the pilot's weight. Maybe I'll have to follow Jeff Lang's plan.

Thanks Ed.

Tom
 
Scott,

thanks a lot for this much information. Have all these topics stood the test of time, i.e. would you put these on an engine that targets long term longevity ?

cheers
Hans
 
Hans, The older designs, the Renegade, the Volksplane, Druine Turbulent, Taylor Monoplane, Early KR-1, Jodels, etc. have built up thousands of flying hours with the VW case bolted directly to an airframe, using small isolator bushings, without an X casting containing Continental type Rubber isolators. I am not saying it is superior, but it is lighter....
Tom, thanks for the nice words.... On the 'Lil Bitts, a tubular motor mount would be used between engine bell and firewall station.....Ed
 
Ed,

I'm aware of that. My question referred to the longevity of those other weight saving mods that were mentioned.

cheers
Hans
 
Hans,
Leonard Milholland's 1/2 VW has been running for many years, but there is a 1/2 vw yahoo group. You could see if he reported any problems. He may have also posted on the Eagle's Nest yahoo group. This is the group that is dedicated to his designs. As for the Hall sensors, they should last a lifetime. They have no moving parts. The ignition module depends on who you get it from. The chopper motorbike builders have been getting rid of their batteries long before I existed. All of my thought should be reliable and stand the test of time.
Scott R
 
n3480h said:
Thank you Scott! This is absolutely excellent information. I learned several new things here, especially about the seconday ignition. The only problem I have is that every time I walk into a H-D store . . . I ride out. ::) Many of these things will be incorporated in the 1915 engine for the next project, one of Ed Fisher's 'Lil Bitts. Some of these will also be put into the 2287 that will go into my IILS.

What great resources (members) we have here on Sonerai.net.

Tom

Tom, rereading EAA Experimenters article on 'Lil Bitts I see Ed built it with the smaller Rotax engine (582?). Just how light are you aiming for with your 1915VW?
-Pete
 
Pete, Jumping in here, the Bitts engine package weight limit is 155 pounds. Tom and I have been talking of ways to keep the VW conversion at, or below that number. I have removed the 582 Rotax from the Bitts, and am now installing a Rotax 503 for this summer. After that is tested, perhaps next year, I will install a VW on the prototype....Ed
 
Yeah, what Ed said. ;D

Pete, we'll see what happens, but I think I can get the 1915cc down to a workable weight. But before any of that happens, I have a Sonerai to finish and a Skylite to rebuild. But it will happen. If I can get the VW down to 150-155 I think it would be a good performer. And I have an ace in the hole that I can use if necessary. I just love small bipes, just for the joy of flying. Can't help it.

Tom
 
It is indeed, Ed. But if I have to have a disease, I might as well have one that's fun.

Tom
 
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